Saturday, November 23, 2024 12:37:04 PM

Synthetic Oils

11 years ago
#1959 Quote
Should I use modern synthetic oils in a newly refurbished engine (12/50) fitted with full flow oil filter?  Neither the engine nor the filter catrridge was designed for use with such oils, but will this result in problems?  I imagine that viscosity range SAE 10/60 would be the preferred grade, and is readily obtainable. Posted by martinw 19/03/2013 13:57:33
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11 years ago
#1960 Quote
Martin, you would find 'Which Oil ?' by Richard Michell (pub. Veloce) an interesting book that covers oils and greases for engines, transmissions and chassis. I think his conclusion is that synthetic oil would be no advantage in your engine and possibly disadvantageous. I should go for a multigrade if your engine is clean. I have run my Firefly on 15/40 for a number of years with no ill effects so far. John Stubberfield Posted by Stubbers 21/03/2013 21:55:49
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11 years ago
#1961 Quote
Hi Martin,  A lot of people use Halfords Classic 20/50 (me included) which is apparently supplied to Halfords from Castrol.  I wouldn't have thought you need to run to the expense of fully-synthetic in an agricultural 12/50 engine?  (I'm not being rude) Posted by Angus D'Arcy-Drake 25/03/2013 15:56:14
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11 years ago
#1962 Quote
Greetings Martin,  Here in Australia I consciously use Penrite Oils as they are purpose made for our range of period vehicles. I am aware that their products are sold in the UK. The Australian web address is  <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.penriteoil.com.au/">http://www.penriteoil.com.au/</a><!-- m -->   If nothing else use their &quot;contact us&quot; page and ask them the same question and also what they would recommend.  I use a range of their products. In particular their radiator additive is outstanding.  Hope this helps. Regards  Richard Posted by RichardWallach 19/04/2013 01:29:23
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11 years ago
#1963 Quote
Thank you gentlemen, for all your help.  I have now read &quot;Which Oil&quot;, and that has explained much.  Following its advice, I no longer intend to use synthetic oil in the engine, but would consider it for the transmission.  Currently, there is only inhibiting oil in steering box, differential, engine and gearbox.  I am leaning towards Penrite for the steering box,and Halfords Classic for the engine.  I may use a special running-in oil for initial operations. Best wishes Martin Posted by martinw 20/04/2013 08:03:11
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10 years ago
#1964 Quote
Running in oil is a MUST for a freshly built engine.. Modern oils, even cheap mineral ones are too good…  You need the rings to bed in.  Penrite do a very good running in oil which I use on all the engines I build with no ill effects (you can even race on running in oil with a fresh engine).  Then I'd go for a Classic Light 20w/60 or a HPR30 (also 20w/60 but with slightly different additives.  Do not use Synthetic or Semi Synthetic oils in our old designed engines even if they are newly built…!  Mark. Posted by Mark T Boldry 08/12/2013 10:23:38
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10 years ago
#1965 Quote
I have been using 15/40 semi synthetic oil in my tuned Firebird, and TD21 Special for many years,  what is supposed to be the detrimental bit?  One often hears talk of high stressed modern engines, but, surely the prewar engine is much more highly stressed than the average modern?  It has to run at least 50% faster, the piston speed about double, and lack of quietening ramps on the cams mean camshaft stresses are higher as well.  Jack Clover Posted by jackclover 14/12/2013 09:14:12
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10 years ago
#1966 Quote
This 14 year old article may provide some insight:  The Best Oil for Older Cars  from Patrick Bedard’s commentary in Car &amp; Driver November, 1999, p.23  The technical information in the column came from one Ed Kollin, who was a research chemist at Exxon for many years and who now is Director of R&amp;D for Lubrication Science in Jersey—in other words, a guy who almost certainly knows what he is talking about. Here are some of the relevant facts: 1. Remember the synthetic oil ad that showed an engine running after it had first been filled and then drained of oil? Apparently the oil contains a 'miracle molecule' that allows the engine to run for a while after the oil has been drained. The 'miracle molecule' does this by clinging to the metal surfaces very tightly, so tightly that it displaces the anti-wear additives in the oil which were put there to protect those metal surfaces. This means that for long-term use, that oil actually wears your engine faster than conventional oil. 2. Today's motor oil meets SF specs. (now SL) --- the oil our older car engines were designed to meet something like SA or SB, or at most SC specs. (This is the SAE specification on the little circular label on every good motor oil sold in the USA). Usually we are told that the newer oil is better, but is it true? And if true, better in what way? 3. Engine oil contains many additives, and the primary anti-wear and anti-oxidation agent is a chemical by the jaw-breaking name of zinc dialkyi Dithiophosphate (ZDDP for short). ZDDP, while good for engine wear and reducing corrosion/rusting, it is bad for catalytic converters: as a result the modern SJ and later rated oils have about 25% less ZDDP than the old SA and SB oils. 4. New cars, to make the catalytic converters live, need lower levels of ZDDP. But this is a compromise, which results in more engine wear and corrosion. Our older precatalytic cars want a big dose of ZDDP to keep engine wear down. 5. New engine oil may be good for catalytic converters, but are not as good for your engine from the point of reducing corrosion as the old oil was. 6. Fuels today often have oxygenates - MTBE or Ethanol added to them in big cities in the USA.  Traces of these oxygenates get into the engine oil, and apparently these chemicals are, to quote &quot;tremendously corrosive&quot;, and they attack gaskets, seals and certain metals. No problem for automakers, they choose new polymers and alloys which are immune to these attacks. But what's to prevent the attacks and corrosion in older engines? 7. So what can we do? Well Ed Kollin says that for a seldom driven older car, such as show cars or in fact anything but a daily driver, &quot;corrosion is a greater problem than wear, even the wear from starting an engine that has been sitting long enough to drain oil off most of its rubbing surfaces-- because only one little patch on that same rubbing surface is dooms day&quot;. 8. Ed goes on to say that while he can design a custom oil for this problem, the best off the shelf oil is heavy oil designed for Diesel trucks. Instead of SJ, look for combinations that begin with C (for compression ignition), CC-4 is the latest, preceded by CF-4, CF-2 and CF.A. Few oil blends meet both C and S requirements. While the oil part of these Diesel oils has the same lubricating qualities as passenger car oil, the most common heavy-duty viscosity is 15W040; more syrupy. But the Diesels get bigger doses of the additives---up to 50% more ZDDP (the anti-wear anti-corrosion additive) and 30 to 50% more detergent, dispersant and corrosion inhibitors. 9. The bad news: There's a very small chance, he says, that nitrogen compounds in the high dose of dispersant may cause some seals to leak. Moreover, if you've never used detergent oil before, you may wash chunks of sludge loose that could block the hydraulic filter. 10. The good news: If you have sticky rings, erratic compression and blue exhaust smoke, this high detergent oil will quickly free them up. For corrosion, Ed says, heavy-duty oil is the silver bullet solution. It's blended to neutralize the sulphuric acid produced by the high sulphur Diesel fuel. Note that sulphuric acid is also produced in car engines burning gasoline. However, the Diesel fuels contain more sulphur and consequently create more acid when burned. That’s basically all the really important information in the column. To me it contains at least three surprises--- (i) Some synthetic oils wear your engine out faster than conventional oils. (ii) Older conventional oils protect your engine better than the newer ones. (iii) The best oil to use in the older cars is an oil designed for Diesel trucks Posted by johnlayzell 14/12/2013 15:16:58
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10 years ago
#1967 Quote
Martin,  Re your steering box and idler arm box I would not use Penrite steering box lube as it is very viscous and to that end very hard to pour in unless heated first. However the bigger issue as I see it concerns the idler arm box in that there is only a little hole drilled in the idler shaft and this serves to lubricate the entire shaft. The viscous Penrite oil I do not believe will be adequately able to flow through this hole and thus lubricate the top and bottom of the shaft.  For the TA21 the recommendation is differential oil. This oil flows easily. Chances are that the idler arm has worn away the bottom of the aluminum casing. You can tell by jacking up the front end and turning near side wheel. You can see the slack. The solution is to fit a brass bushing and a new seal (that is if one was originally fitted).  Hoping that this assists.  Richard Posted by RichardWallach 08/05/2014 03:54:02
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10 years ago
#1968 Quote
May I come into this discussion rather late? My understanding is that one should NOT use synthetic oil in vintage engines.   The reason is very simple.  Old engine with flat cam followers have high rubbing motion between cam and follower.  The best lubricant for this is zinc compounds, but these are incompatible with catalytic converters and are therefore left out of modern synthetic oils.  Modern engines have roller cam followers which do not have such high rubbing forces and therefore can manage without the zinc. This is rather simplistic, as there are all sorts of secondary considerations about different types of zinc compounds, etc., but I believe that it is essentially true. Use a good old-fashioned 20/50 multigrade - it will be much better than the stuff that was used when our vintage cars were new!  Dudley. Posted by Dudley Smith 08/07/2014 17:51:19
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